Economy Rigging 1

DMcW’s blog posts IV May 4, 2010

WE FACE A DEBT FUELLED DOWNTURN: DMcW Jan17 2010

PHILRUSS1:

leaving the Euro will result in a massive hike of interest rates which will destroy business entirely……

SEAN KELLY:

Interest rates were far too low, set by the European Central Bank which encouraged excess lending and discouraged saving in Ireland.

FF encouraged the housing bubble with many forms of grants.

The problem was caused back in the 90s. We were drunk up until 07 and now were are going around with a severe hangover.

PAUL J COLLINS:

the option that the us government was going to take, prior to the proposed TARP bailout. The US were going to use the billions in taxpayers money to give to those who were in negative equity to pay off part of the value of their mortgage. For example, a bank lent out 100,000k to a person, property now only worth 70,000, the bank writes down the mortgage to 70,000 upon reciept of payment from the governement.

This policy would kill 2 birds with one stone. The average homeowner would no longer be in as much debt to the bank. Their monthly repayments would also be reduced by 30%. And the banks would get the capital they need to refinance.

For some strange reason, (not that strange really becuase the bankers suggested it) the US adopted the Tarp bailout, and decided to give the money directly to the banks instead!!!! And for some strange reason every other country in the western world followed suit. Makes you think, doesnt it.

G:

parasitic also known as ‘entrepreneurialism’. Of course, he maintains it is all very altruistic, ‘providing good furnishings’, ‘providing accommodation’, ‘providing a caring, sensitive approach’ but if the mortgage ain’t paid I wonder how long that would last, sad to say, but I am beginning to hate this place but I doubt there are many places different, there seems to be more tenant rights and rented accommodation on the continent, rents are maintained at certain levels so people can’t be priced out of their ‘homes’ – our fixation with owing a property, coupled with non-stop property programmes, supplements, and magazines fuel these ‘destructive and unrealistic desires’ – this desire to own a house has been made even unattainable because of property speculators, greedy builders and agents and total lack of regulation/compassion of the government, by the government for the

To my mind, the State should have taken over entirely the construction of housing, regulated the prices and provided a home to anyone who wanted one, setup neighbour committees to deal with any issues (with Garda enforcement), they did not regulate the ‘construction industry and banks like they should have’ (‘what right some would say?’ to which I would add: ‘don’t bail them out so, let the rule of the market, which were so often quoted, play out to full effect (US Republican style), let the fall like dominos and let us begin anew”).

FERGAL73:

Education? You’re completely missing the point. The mortgage broker got commissioned when he made the loan (and the bigger the better). The branch manger kept his job and got a bonus. The senior lending officers got bonused on the same basis. The CFO of the bank, the rest of the board, the COO, CEO all got rich. They did exactly what they should have done in their own self interest. They made a lot of money and grew wealthy. On being booted out, they got golden handshakes and pay-offs.

Senior civil servants were employed by a government that was pulling in cash from the false market. This included the regulator. If they had intervened, they would have lost their jobs.

The failure was that of government, who should take a long term view as to what is good for the country. Bertie’s suicide comment made it perfectly clear that clear and level thinking was not open as an option if you wanted to keep your job. The government chose a system of minimal regulation – there was a financial party, now there’s a financial hangover.
The Irish electorate voted FF in. Responsibility rests with them.

DECO:

Wills – if McNama had 400 Million to spend on a small site in Dublin 4, well that is his own business. And he is entitled to do whatever he wants with his own money.

However when he gets the money from the bankers – and the bankers are getting bonuses based on the volume of money that they loan out – and the bankers are driving the prices insane, trying to out-do each other so as to get the bonuses, then that is the Financial Regulator’s business.

And if the watchmen in the Financial Regulators office are playing golf with the bankers (as mentioned I think in Shane Ross’ book The bankers) then it is the citizens business.

WILLS:

His bad business judgement and facilitation of POnzi scamming bubble pricing by paying into a horrendously over priced property asset alongside other parties is not simple business transactions gone south.

It effects upon all of us. His actions have effected my income. My business dealings are not encroaching upon his income because i conduct my business accordingly as is the requirement when engaging in free market enterprise.

YOu see deco the problem is too many people think they know how to transact business in a free market system and they quite patently do not.

The glass bottle site nonsense is POnzi Rep in a metaphor.

PHILRUSS1:

There was a massive system failure in the financial regulatory mechanism which caused us to crash rather than skid. Lets nail this to the piece now – the bulk of the problems we have here, not relating to the world wide credit crunch, were caused by the failure of the financial regulatory system – it kept fuelling an already over-heated economy. In my opinion all economic commentators should be hounding the authorities / Governments as to how they intend to introduce effective regulation (this is a world wide phenomenon – Governments are shirking financial regulatory reform).

I used to play bridge and study bridge problems (strictly as an amateur enthusiast!). Complicated problems had 2 types of solutions. Scenario 1) So long as you could see how to solve the problem – you would always win however the cards lay. Scenario 2) You had assume that the key cards were in certain positions to have a chance of winning – because if they weren’t then you had no chance.

Scenario 2 is where Ireland is today. We may have no chance if the cards fall wrong. The bridge analogy is something akin to NAMA – we have to assume it will work. Its function is to buy time to allow the USA and UK economies to recover. The USA is going through the process of foreclosures (and if there any crumbs of comfort sales although very low values are quite fluid). In effect it is lancing its poison. We have to hope that the economic damage brought about by the Sub-Prime debacle in the States was not so cataclysmic so as to result in the demise of the USA as a leading player in the World economy.

I feel it would be so more useful if David’s articles concentrated on “where we want to get to” – give us some vision. We need to copper fasten our blueprint for our economic and social future. I argue that a strong property market must be part of that future and in order to ensure the sustainability of a strong property market we need effective financial regulation to safeguard against people and institutions abusing the strength of such a market.

PAUL J COLLINS:

With regard to bondholders…bondholders cover all aspects of the market. Bondholders can be governements, businesses and private investors. If you feck the bondholders you affect all aspects of the market. Also future government borrowing comes next to near impossible, with very high rates imposed. If you think its bad borrowing at 1.6% over what the germans borrow, how bad would that be if it was 10.6%.

It would be the equivalent of going into your local AIB tommorow and asking for a 110% mortgage for an apartment in Bulgaria. Not gonna happen.

DECO:

IBEC’s response – saturation advertising, propaganda, hype, lemming control mechanisms, and all sorts of commercial promotion to make you feel as if your life is all about a consumption.

IBEC do not want you to think about citizenship – you might be a danger to their running of their country – especially if discover that they are running the country. Therefore consumerism, “bread and circuses”. The worst thing you could do is say life is about living, and that living is not a series of brand endorsements and all that BS.

CBWEB:

First up, we need a deep and forensic probe of the problem. That’s why an Inquiry is so important to get right.

I’m beginning to gather material for thought around this here http://colmbrazel.wordpress.com/2010/01/17/fianna-fail-a-threat-to-democracy/

I believe the lax supervision of our banking system, not only locally but also from those responsible for regulating the euro, should be a basis upon which we consider defaulting on bond holders or renegotiating.

We need a towline from Europe or elsewhere similar to the The Mansholt Plan or Roosevelt response to the Great Depression.

We are stuck somewhere in the following vortex that is sucking us down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

“Debt deflation Irving Fisher argued that the predominant factor leading to the Great Depression was over-indebtedness and deflation.

Fisher tied loose credit to over-indebtedness, which fueled speculation and asset bubbles.[15] He then outlined 9 factors interacting with one another under conditions of debt and deflation to create the mechanics of boom to bust.

The chain of events proceeded as follows:

Debt liquidation and distress selling

Contraction of the money supply as bank loans are paid off

A fall in the level of asset prices

A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies

A fall in profits

A reduction in output, in trade and in employment.

Pessimism and loss of confidence

Hoarding of money

A fall in nominal interest rates and a rise in deflation adjusted interest rates.[15]

During the Crash of 1929 preceding the Great Depression, margin requirements were only 10%.[16]

Brokerage firms, in other words, would lend $9 for every $1 an investor had deposited. When the market fell, brokers called in these loans, which could not be paid back.

Banks began to fail as debtors defaulted on debt and depositors attempted to withdraw their deposits en masse, triggering multiple bank runs.

Government guarantees and Federal Reserve banking regulations to prevent such panics were ineffective or not used.

Bank failures led to the loss of billions of dollars in assets.[17] Outstanding debts became heavier, because prices and incomes fell by 20–50% but the debts remained at the same dollar amount.

After the panic of 1929, and during the first 10 months of 1930, 744 US banks failed. (In all, 9,000 banks failed during the 1930s).

By April 1933, around $7 billion in deposits had been frozen in failed banks or those left unlicensed after the March Bank Holiday.[18]
Bank failures snowballed as desperate bankers called in loans which the borrowers did not have time or money to repay.

With future profits looking poor, capital investment and construction slowed or completely ceased. In the face of bad loans and worsening future prospects, the surviving banks became even more conservative in their lending.[17]

Banks built up their capital reserves and made fewer loans, which intensified deflationary pressures. A vicious cycle developed and the downward spiral accelerated.

The liquidation of debt could not keep up with the fall of prices which it caused. The mass effect of the stampede to liquidate increased the value of each dollar owed, relative to the value of declining asset holdings.

The very effort of individuals to lessen their burden of debt effectively increased it. Paradoxically, the more the debtors paid, the more they owed.[15]

This self-aggravating process turned a 1930 recession into a 1933 great depression.

Macroeconomists including Ben Bernanke, the current chairman of the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, have revived the debt-deflation view of the Great Depression originated by Fisher.[19][20]”

Your statement ‘Deflation – surely this is part and parcel of restoring our competitiveness’ unfortunately for me is part of the bleak government propaganda we are getting at the moment, which is preventing us facing up to our problems.

Do you see Ireland Inc in the scenario above. Look at mass unemployment among the young. Businesses who up to now have held on with their finger tips we will see this year go to the wall.

In a paradoxical way deflation is making our indebtedness worse and is a symptom of the quicksand that threatens to engulf us.

As regards the future, we need to rid ourselves of the present incompetent government. Next government could look at flood relief, water works, railroads, communications, better support/development of agriculture, R&D, IT and the knowledge economy including pharmaceuticals and especially education infrastructure energy and fisheries.

Hope some of the above thoughts help.

LIAM:

Ireland will not recover or even survive current circumstances until it takes a long hard look at itself and realises the myths and nonsense that the Irish believe about themselves being special need to be dispensed with. I’m also living in the far east atm and I can tell you that most people here have hardly heard of Ireland, and few could point to it on a map with any confidence. Ireland does not matter.

Effectively they were told to go and make as much stuff as they can and the US would buy it, the idea being to creat a powerful model for market economies in the far east. The resulting relentless growth in Japanese GDP created all of the things its possible to create when you have a guaranteed steady national income. The Japanese made the assumption, like the Irish that these circumstances would last forever. Their bloated and out of control banking system brought everything crashing down in 1989.

The Japanese leadership (up to that point unchanged in over 30 years) believed the myths about their own success, instead of recognising that their success was based on a unique and unprecedented coincidence of favourable circumstances that were no longer in effect. So all they had to do was throw money at the banks and at public works, and sooner or later growth would return. Instead they got stagnating domestic growth, high levels of savings and a complete dependence on the export market. Most of their export driven gains since then, it could be argued, were fuelled by debt driven western consumer spending, funded ironically in large part by the Japanese themselves. The Japanese failure to adapt to changing circumstances is what guaranteed their lost decade (now nearly two, as most of the export lead growth from 2000 onwards was wiped out in the last two years). Declining personal incomes in the US, the funding of US spending by Japanese bondholders, and the collapse of communism should have been the writing on the wall for the Japanese. (Similarly for Ireland, the rise of China is the writing on the wall for those who think the US and UK will continue to be the engine of the global economy forever.) The major challenge for Hatoyama’s government, beyond reforming the political system and restricting the power of the civil service, is to finally shatter once and for all these myths.

The lesson here is, that so many people in Ireland, including its under-educated and ill-experienced leadership and civil-service believe similar myths about Ireland, and fail to appreciate that we are living in a new reality that bears no resemblance to the last ten to fifteen years of abnormality.

If we cannot understand the ideological and philosophical delusions that Ireland and the Irish accommodated for the last ten years then we have no hope of producing a plan for the country. NAMA is merely a continuation of this deranged thinking, evidence of a complete failure to make a clean break with the mistakes of the past.

I don’t think anyone can reasonably claim not to know how NAMA will work out unless they are clearly doing so from a position of ignorance. Even an elementary amount of digging up of professional analyses suggests that it will be a disaster, both in the scale of losses it (and ultimately YOU) will have to absorb, and in its utter failure to restore credit flow in Ireland, its primary stated objective. The Irish political system is incapable of coming up with a better alternative, as it is configured to protect centres of wealth and power. This is an optimum solution for them and is being sold as an optimum solution for everybody and this is plainly a deception. If you want to interpret such assertions as the product of a closed mind-set, that is your right. That doesn’t change the facts.

PHILIP:

the fickle nature of commerce and that International respect at a commercial level is an illusion. Hell, anyone will play with the devil as long as they give a return. That’s all that nonsense is about. We need to destroy the nonsense that debt is the fundamental driver business. It is not…it is the driver of grabbing market share from more prudently run operations.

PhilRuss1 – Interest rates will definately shoot up and destroy businesses in this country. No doubt about it. I know many many business who have no debt who have been nearly put out of business by businesses who raised too much debt. Good riddance. I wnat to see the real businesses with real business plans back. There are lots of them. But as long as capitalism is not allowed do its cleansing work, the mistakes of the past will haunt us and kill this place off.

Moral renaissance has been stopped in its tracks by NAMA and those fools we have governing us by faciliatating the same bad habits. Those business that grow from next to no debt will be hampered and the vacuous nature of our nation will become more highlighted as hard worker just chuck in the towel.

RUAIRI:

essentially, bad business can break good business. Especially now if its rotten short-life agenda is now government-backed by a NAMA monster that delays the market’s natural purging. Which would save good businesses. There was an excellent business case spelled out in this regard (shopping malls or business parks) but I can’t put my hand on it. I think I’ve linked it on DMcW before, over a year ago. Fascinating stuff, how bad loans rot a society.

Apologies, that reads incorrectly. The reason that the ‘old money’ competitor gets put out of business by the ‘borrowed money’ competitor is that the borrowed money guy runs out of steam, defaults, his asstes get picked up at 10-20cent in the Euro, and then the new guy has a much lower cost base from which to extract a profit and hence offer silly prices into the market. Hence destroying ‘good money’ competitors. This is the rot that Wills constantly avers to when he demands that moneylending must be a utility. Derivatives, and the like, mean that in a value-investor world, you would be better keeping your wallet in your back pocket, as NO ONE currently knows where the value lies. Or the roadside financial bombs.

CBWEB:

What is argued is that there should be a basis upon which we consider defaulting on bond holders or renegotiating.

‘Defaulting’ is the extreme end.

Just as we had 100% mortgages and taxbreaks eg Section 23 on rental property http://www.daft.ie/content/taxissues.daft , along with greedy bankers, bondholders knew about our credit rating and where their money was being invested. Due diligence went out the door. OT isn’t it time to end the banking bonus culture for good and to set a cap on banker salaries for those banks in receipt of taxpayer’s billions?

Bond holders just had to take one look at the bank balance sheets and know to whom and where money was going. Arising from this they have ownership of a good proportion of responsibility in our banking collapse.

This should be the haircut upon which we need to renegotiate.
As a layperson, at a minimum to protect our future, we need to renegotiate NAMA with ECB to include the clause; if losses in excess of Government claims, over the lifetime of the NAMA project, say 10 years, occur, they will be written off by the ECB and not levied upon the taxpayer.

We shouldn’t accord bondholders a blanket guarantee but rather negotiate on the basis of their irresponsibility and lack of due diligence.

Government have been backed by the ECB through the bonds issued to support NAMA. Here again our Government have shown how easily it is to separate fools(themselves) from their money.

It should have been possible through risk sharing to agree a deal with the ECB for payback terms conditional upon the success or otherwise of the NAMA project. This deal would have protected the Irish taxpayer.

Unfortunately, unconditionally, the Government have thrown in their lot with the bankers and eurocrats who’ve both fleeced Government and taxpayers together.

Concerned economists like D, Taylor, Lucey, Stiglitz and others continually try to point out the folly of our Government’s approach.

MALCOLM: (bonds)

cbweb: The time was not so long ago when a bond was as good as gold. It was backed with everything you had. No renegotiaton. No senior bonds. Just bonds. Defaulting on bonds spelt The End.

Then somebody invented Credit Default Swaps. Soon bonds became an elastic commitment whose value was determined by credit agencies’ ratings. Who cared? The default was covered by insurance. Those insurance policies were traded as if they had value independent of who owned the bonds they covered. That value increased if the assets backing the bonds decreased, providing a jamboree for speculators, who could play both ends against the middle, which they did. Consequently, if every bond defaults, based on the assumption that someone, somewhere, has covered that bond with an equivalent CDS, then we only become liable for those bonds whose owners can prove conclusively that they have never been covered by a CDS. Likewise for all other debts. In this way we pass the burden of the debt to where it rightfully belongs, the guarantor of the CDS.

Regarding bank salaries and bonuses. Whilst BOI and AIB remain un-nationalised, the government has no way to control how they are managed. Long-standing shareholders have given up on them. Bond-holders are covered each way. Having divested most of their physical assets, each banks’ total value is mainly as a manipulative organization, which will evaporate if they are nationalized.

Regarding the Euro. We have nothing to lose by hanging in there with it. There is enough uncertainty about, without trying to launch a new floating currency. I, personally don’t think the Euro can survive without enormous inflation. We can deal with that when it happens.

WILLS:

The problem is if one gets too bogged down in all the complexities one will never make a move.

D is all about balancing thought with action.

One can never build up too much savings.

One can rack up too much debt though.

The argument is put that if we all saved spending would go down and consumption and production follow.

So what i say.

Davis it is like this. The operating system of a free market is not contingent on consumption. It is contingent on innovation. And savings in the bank is essential for innovation to bloom cos,

savings = capital.

Agreed. Problem is though the Pro NAMA ites reality is radically different to the anti NAMA ites.

The ‘controlling interests’ are using gov bond issuance to stage a gigantic ECB print run of euros, under the cloak of a cover story titled NAMA, and all this cash on the way rolling into the banks will be siphoned off.

Sections from new statesman link from tims post.

It puts very well the points Davids wrestling with in article above into a back story with a twist in the tail at the end.

1 – At least two generations look destined to pay a painful price for the follies of the golden circles whose scams, swindles and con jobs have lumbered Ireland with zombie banks that make RBS and HBOS look relatively vibrant. Anglo Irish alone may swallow over €30bn of public cash, equivalent to the total revenues collected by the Irish exchequer in the whole of last year.

2 – Dublin’s fragile coalition government seems far more spooked by the danger of international investors downgrading their country’s credit rating (which would make the cost of borrowing substantially higher) and the spectre of the IMF seizing the financial reins. Dublin is determined to distinguish Ireland from Greece, whose continued profligacy threatens to destabilise the entire eurozone.

3 – The 20 per cent cutback in state expenditure that the Irish want to implement within the next four years is intended to comply with an important requirement for membership of the single currency that member states keep their expenditure deficits down to a maximum of 3 per cent of GDP.

4 – The European Central Bank (ECB) agreed to bend this rule when the extent of the global crash became clear, but it has set firm deadlines, between 2012 and 2015, for each state to recomply (Ireland’s is 2014). Members of the cabinet have stated repeatedly in recent months that everything they have done to address the country’s economic crisis is in accordance with ECB advice. No one in Dublin doubts Ireland would have been in the same mess as Iceland had it not signed up to the single currency, the main reason the Lisbon Treaty was passed by such a huge margin at the second time of asking.

4 – The term “Tory” originated in Ireland. It derives from the old Gaelic word tóraidhe, meaning outlaw or robber, and was initially a term of abuse for the isolated bands of guerrillas who resisted Cromwell’s brutal campaign in the mid-17th century. Since these rebels were allied to royalists, the term became embraced by monarchists on the British mainland, and, in time, by the modern Conservative Party.

Ireland’s self-styled republican party, Fianna Fáil is obviously anything but monarchist but has it become monetarist in an ideological sense; is it too simplistic to say the party is engaged in a zealous crusade to squeeze the country’s money supply, re-engineer society according to a social Darwinist blueprint and neuter the trade unions.

Interesting back story on ‘tory’ and its origins in ireland and FF and its supposed allegiances and where one may find green is something else all together.

shape of our economy in the “boom times’ was. Here it is, again new statesman link.

The one-time island of saints and scholars had become a land of spivs and speculators and a manufacturing outpost for American multinationals. Ireland’s economic miracle was always somewhat hallucinatory, because these US firms, heavily concentrated in chemicals and pharmaceuticals as well as computer software, used it as an Atlantic tax haven and route to the EU marketplace. Ireland Inc was always far richer than the national workforce, three-quarters of whom earned less than €40,000 per annum, even in the good times.

And the post celtic tiger ‘boom times’ shape,

During this period, popularity – and peace with the unions – was bought by slashing income tax and shovelling much of the proceeds of the nation’s property boom into a bloated public sector as well as vastly increased social-welfare benefits. When Ahern took office in 1997, the average single person on €40,000 a year paid 40.6 per cent of their annual earnings in tax. By 2004, this had been cut to just 19.7 per cent. His government cultivated rather than cured a widespread phobia towards taxation of any sort. Even when the price of a three-bed semi in Dublin rose to €1m, there was no serious move to introduce a council tax (or any separate source of local government finance).

Meanwhile, concern mounts that Dublin’s shock therapy risks a deflationary shock that could not just collapse public-service provision, but propel Ireland into a full-blown, Japanese-style depression.

Fergal @ 3 nails the bottom line on the motives across the board who went with the property POnzi model of easy money post 2000 here in Ireland.

As is with all POnzi scams it ran out of new comers and collapsed.

We now are in phase II as D’s article points out to this collapse.

Sean kelly shouts out @ 9 the straight forward solution the economy must go through to re juvenate, which is, leave the free market be and let it find real market equilibrium price on property.

Rents will fall, house prices will fall and the re adjustment will be short and the outcome will be good.

NAMA stops this happening.

NAMA prevents our economy going through this cleansing process.

NAMA keeps the free market operating system in Ireland on rigged ‘mode’.

ECB is facilitating the implementation of NAMA.

If we were outside of the EU and issued our own currency etc we could not get away with doing NAMA and its cost and property would find its real market equilibrium price and more of us could afford to own a home.

People are been deliberately been kept from been able to afford and buy their own home.

People are been forced to pay outrageous rents on dodgy properties.

Why?

Why are the controlling interests doing everything they can possibly invent up to do to interfere with property prices.

This weird weird neurosis is still with us in bringing in NAMA and continuing the POnzi property scam down a new avenue.

ALAN42:

The controlling interests (property developers, bankers and FF) assets are predominantly preperty related. If prices approach true market value (average house = 4 – 5 times average wage) then those controlling interests lose money.

They are therefore doing everything they can to prop up property prices. NAMA is a support to the property market.

No neurosis is involved at the upper end. FF have been financially supported for the last 15 – 20 years by developers and others in the property game. FF know their funding from regular joe’s will not be forthcoming. FF wish to survive. The only way they can is by supporting the developers.

FF action in that light is entirely rational.

TONY MURPHY:

“The real problem is we have too many fly-by-night merchants trying to think of ways to welch on their debts, inflate their currency & run for the hills, instead of knuckling down and thinking how to innovate, how to make products and services that people abroad want to buy.”

I agree that Ireland Inc needs to start producing and exporting, but who would be bothered taking risks in a country run by FF? or FG or labour for that matter. Where is the investment going to come from? Are people in the private sector going to break their backs working to end up paying huge taxes for the benefit of bankers, politicians, bond holders, casino capitalists and the like. I can’t see it. Ireland is very broken and will remain broken until there is serious reform.

DMcW:

Germany’s gargantuan surpluses are a sign that its economy is dreadfully imbalanced. It is saving too much; maybe because the real rate of return on investment in Germany is too low or because its population is too old and has passed its consuming years. There are lots of other reasons which we can discuss. However, the upshot is a glut of savings in the Eurozone which will try to find a home where the “promised” returns are highest.

In Europe this home tends to be on the periphery which (by definition – if the EU is serious about convergence) is faster growing. The return on equity will be higher in a faster growing region than a slower one, and thus, money with no exchange rate risk but enormous real risk, flows into the likes of Ireland from the like of Deutsche Bank. The lack of exchange rate risk is misdiagnosed as a lack of actual risk, leading to bad decisions.

This creates boom/bust conditions and makes the Euurozone unstable and inappropriate for some countries as this carryon will be repeated time and again

I am not denying our culpability (i’ve been highlighting this for some time now) but I am looking at the supply of money in the Euro as well as the demand.

PHILIP:

As DMcW points out the elimination of exchange rate risk never eliminated the risk of boom/bust/default which resulted from mismanagement. I believe the local regulatory authorities dropped the ball on not monitoring interest rates becasue it was not their currency anymore. The local currency was the litmus paper test for local performance which got thrown out of the local dashboard for monitoring economic performance 10 years ago.

We need to understand the interconnected nature of Euro not just within Europe but outside it as well. If Greece throws a wobbly, the contagion effect on Ireland will be immediate. ECB will pull in its helping hand from the PIGS to defend the Euro. It has no choice – either that or it goes into Greece right now and acts as an IMF – but where is the material enforcement? And then we have all those US military bases there and their own army – keeping the Muslims at bay. What a tangled mess this is becoming. Pull the Euro from Greece and you risk destabilising more than just the Euro. Greeks have the ECB over a barrel – but how long can the latter hold out if things do not improve?

WILLS:

relands economic collapse is because the 3 major banks gambled on international markets by borrowing beyond their capital ratio’s while the banking sector grew to a number of times GDP so when they collapsed it was an enormous collapse.

The taxpayers have been stuck paying back their debts through the plundering of the pubic purse and said transfers to banks, the state guarantee and the exploitation of the bond issuance facility with ECB.

Everyone with a head screwed on the right way knew that a property bubble was been inflated to make POnzi scamming go skywards.

The banks knew it would end in the bubble bursting and they knew the taxpayer would bail them all out of the whirlwind the bubble bursting would make.

And NAMA is this bailout been slapped on the taxpayers backs.

This is banking and property speculator tyranny over the running of this country.

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WE’RE ALL FOOLS IF WE THINK RECOVERY PLAN IS PATRIOTIC: DMcW FEB 3 2009

G:

I take on board the comments of a previous poster who demanded individual action, however we need a national plan, we also need government and financial institutions to provide much needed seed capital/liquidity for the real economy – this is unlikely to happen given the banks determination to build themselves up again – frankly, they should have been nationalised from day one as they have proven themselves incapable of managing their affairs.

If the banks were risk adverse regarding start ups during the boom they are positively so during the bust, crippling business and leading to further unemployment. The laziness of the boom years, failure to diversify has come back to haunt us all, the economic mismanagement is astounding. I would also ask what are the development/local business boards doing in terms of stimulating new business ventures?

The banks played the lazy property game (quick profits) and as well discussed on this site, we are picking up the tab, while these same institutions increase interest rates, which according to that former FF man on Prime Time last night, now banking federation spokeperson, is ‘in our interests’ – pardon the pun – truly Orwellian.

RUAIRI:

+1 to “The one way to get this economy moving again is to allow land values and the cost of professional services collapse, force guaranteed banks to do deals with their mortgage holding customers (removing the risk to the taxpayer) with the debt for equity swaps that David has been banging on about, freeing up money that is going down the drain on increased mortgage repayments and which should be spent in the real economy, and of course, let banks such as Anglo go to the wall.”

JCURRAN:

2)The lack of leadership is astonishing. as outlined above, all of the arse-ing about with NAMA, it just makes me sick at this stage. The fact that it is based on a significant appreciatioin of property values in “the future” renders me apathetic. The absence of real strategies aimed at getting people back to work, the absence of any obvious or meaningful investigation into the shenanigans at Anglo, Nationwide and other institutions, the farce over FAS and its board of directors all suggest to me that we have a government who are not actually governing. They are reeling from crisis to crisis. The lack of leadership from the unions is also shameful. Without a government worth its salt, one would think that the unions would step in and assume some responsibility by showing the way on issues such as getting our cost base down. Instead we hear Jack O’Connor bleating about “helping with negotiations” by orchestrating a 70,000 person work to rule. Idiots.

TIM:

Article 45 outlines a number of broad principles of social and economic policy. Its provisions are, however, intended solely for the guidance of the legislature and cannot be enforced by a court of law. In the 21st century, the Directive Principles of Social Policy feature little in parliamentary debates. However, no proposals have been made for their repeal or amendment. They require, in summary, that:

* Justice and charity must inform national institutions.
* The free market and private property must be regulated in the interests of the common good.
* The state must prevent a destructive concentration of essential commodities in the hands of a few.
* The state should ensure efficiency in private industry and protect the public against economic exploitation.
* Everyone has the right to an adequate occupation
* The state must supplement private industry where necessary.
* The state must protect the vulnerable, such as orphans and the aged.
* No one must be forced into an occupation unsuited to their age, sex or strength.

THOMAS FERGUSON:

LIMERICK solicitors Dermot G O’Donovan, three of whose partners are directors of the Fordmount Group, now in receivership, have been appointed by NAMA to provide legal services.

Fordmount is believed to owe in excess of €100m to Anglo Irish Bank.

One of the partners, Adrian Frawley, was appointed managing director of Fordmount following the departure of accountant Michael Daly, who is said to be the majority shareholder of the Fordmount Group.

Other shareholders in the Fordmount Group include the firm’s other partners Dermot G. O’Donovan, Michael Sherry and ex-partner Tommy Dalton, who has left the firm.

Speaking to this newspaper a local source claimed, “Michael Daly is the majority shareholder with a 50% holding and the four others hold 12.5% each”.

Fordmount Property Group have constructed €300 million worth of property in Limerick including the landmark Riverpoint Development, The Savoy Hotel and The Park Nursing Home in Castletroy.

Anglo Irish Bank who financed Fordmount’s projects, are believed to be their largest creditor.

The bank installed Billy O’Riordan of PriceWaterHouseCoopers as receiver to the Fordmount Group following analysis of their holdings by forensic accountants Cooney Carey. Speaking to the Limerick Post, the receiver said that he was unsure whether any of the group assets would be considered for NAMA.

He said: “I am in contact with the directors who have put together a statement of affairs with which we can carry out a financial analysis of the group”.

In 2005 Fordmount Property Group gave a political donation of €1,750 to Minister Willie O’Dea.

Another local firm of solicitors who have been appointed for the provision of legal services in connection with the acquisition of bank assets is Holmes O’Malley Sexton.

Minister of State Peter Power was once junior partner with Holmes O’Malley Sexton, and they also represent former Ceann Comhairle John O’Donoghue.

The other Limerick partnership appointed to provide legal services for NAMA are Sweeney McGann Solicitors, O’Connell Street.

PHILIP:

We can all bitch about the politics and the idiotic economic decisions and the cronyism. But bigger things are coming and have already arrived. There are entrepreneurs out there taking advantage of them and they are going to make everything from the public service to commuting very untypical. Your boss may be from Germany and hers in Poland and you will be in the west of Ireland around Dun Aengus. And our Government? Not sure if that is relevant anymore. It’s a rapidly defunct oganisational structure full of ideas rooted in the past

IRELAND HAS THE CHANCE TO CREATE AN ECONOMIC NARNIA:  (DMcW FEB 7 2010)

G:

that’s what you sign up for when you enter politics, you are a public servant, I am sure he could have delegated some of it, but in some aspects it is the beauty to our system.

Americans were amazed that they could get the equivalent of their secretary of state at a sit down meeting called a clinic, normally based over or in a pub, they thought it was incredible access and far more democratic.

I accept dealing with ’small’ issues can hint at small-mindedness and parochialism. But neither should these people be far removed from those they are elected to serve.

Having a MSc in Economics from LSE shouldn’t be an indication of much bar an ability to remember and pass exams, its who you are and what you do with that ‘knowledge’ that is the question.

Lee had his chance and blew it, so back to RTE he goes, with even less credibility.

PAULDIV:

Availability of technology is not a problem any more. The real problem is one of education and the right kind of education at that. College is a complete waste of time because it does not focus on an individuals needs and it doesn’t really teach you anything which you could not easily teach yourself.

Instead of training people for jobs which are not there We could be helping them to harness their knowledge and experience and turn it into something more creative and imaginative. Everyone can express themselves and some bloggers do this successfully every day because they are writing about things from a different angle and they speak with a unique voice. They make sure that they are different from the next guy and they are prepared to go that extra mile when providing quality information that people find valuable … just like you get on this blog actually

We could at least try to ensure that every unemployed person in Ireland has access to broadband, a decent pc and a centralised point of communication where they can talk to each other for guidance, mentoring and support. There would be no problem with licencing costs if these pcs ran Linux and used completely free software. There are rooms stuffed full of unused computers in our colleges which could easily be donated to unemployed people who want to use them for self improvement either alone or in community based projects.

Being an IT guy with spare time on my hands I more than willingly volunteer for work in such community based projects and use my technical abilities to help ordinary people achieve their goals. I believe that such schemes could foster a much needed sense of community once again and give people an escape from the loneliness and despair that comes with unemployment. If the will was there we would find a way. All it takes
is some fresh thinking and a departure from old school mindsets.

JOHN ALLEN:

Taurus is a Bull sign and that is what George is .He stands up without becoming shaken and makes it his business to command sufficient force to get what he wants .He is a formidable force to recon with and displays great loyality to his policies and beliefs.George is a real Prince .
Yesterday was his day of revelation and in these moments now and during this week the planets are releasing healing energy for those who want to use it .I believe the actions of George are a sign to us of leadership to manage those energies to heal the Nation now.

MALCOLM:

If Ireland is serious about developing a ‘Smart Economy’ it should sponsor 100 of our brightest and best to attend the 2010 International Conference on Information and Knowledge Engineering
Date and Location: July 12-15, 2010, Las Vegas, USA
SCOPE: Topics of interest include, but are not limited to, the following:
O Knowledge management and cyber-learning
O Information reliability and security
O Information and knowledge structures
O Information retrieval systems
O Knowledge mining
O Knowledge delivery methods
O Knowledge life cycle
O Knowledge and information extraction and discovery techniques
O Knowledge classification tools
O Knowledge and information management techniques
O Knowledge extraction from images/pictures
O Large-scale information processing methods
O Intelligent knowledge-based systems
O Re-usability of software/knowledge/information
O Aspect-oriented programming
O Formal and visual specification languages
O Decision support and expert systems
O e-Libraries (digital libraries) + e-Publishing
O Digital typography
O Agent-based techniques and systems
O Workflow management
O Large-scale information processing methods and systems
O Content management
O Database engineering and systems
O Data and knowledge fusion
O Data and knowledge processing
O Databanks – issues, methods, and standards
O Dataweb models and systems
O Data/Information/Knowledge models
O Data warehousing and datacenters
O Data security and privacy issues
O Managing copyright laws
O Interoperability issues
O Transaction systems
O Ontologies and semantics
O Object-oriented modeling and systems
O Case-based reasoning
O Digital watermarking
O Classical aspects of information theory
O Coding theory
O Information geometry
O Quantum information theory
O Applications (e-Commerce, multimedia, business, banking, …)
O Emerging technologies and related issues

The rest of us can catch up later as the proceeding will be published online.

MK1:

I would have thought that the financial system in many countries was(IS) in fact a type of Narnia where credit levels were(ARE) not based on realities but were(ARE) in fact based on imagination.

Indeed, currency is based on “imagination” as there is nothing backing it up. Its fiat money. Its not representative of work already done or ‘capital formation’ but is ‘printed’ and ‘eased’ into our financial systems which is based on trust.

We deal everyday in euros, US dollars, JP Yen, etc, but these are Narnia-money, Narnia-dollars if you will. Planet Earth (reality) is in debt to Narnia-land (the future earth?).

MALCOLM:

This from a Stratfor letter ” If Germany does the economically prudent thing and lets Greece fail, it could force some of the rest of the eurozone to shape up and maybe even make the eurozone better off economically in the long run. But this would come at a cost: It would scuttle the euro as a global currency and the European Union as a global player. There is no doubt Germany could afford such a bailout, as the Greek economy is only one-tenth of the size of the Germany’s. But the days of no-strings-attached financial assistance from Germany are over. If Germany is going to do this, there will no longer be anything “implied” or “assumed” about German control of the European Central Bank and the eurozone. The control will become reality, and that control will have consequences. For all intents and purposes, Germany will run the fiscal policies of peripheral member states that have proved they are not up to the task of doing so on their own. To accept anything less intrusive would end with Germany becoming responsible for bailing out everyone.”
That is the end-game.

FURRYLUGS:

Pass the paper Tim, we’re there already. To create wealth one must have order, not a demoralised Gardai. One needs effective education from the cradle, not mothers wondering about bankruptcy nor teachers victimised into apologising for having a job. One needs visible governance to attract ethical investment not gombeenism masquerading under a Phd in Tarmacadam Politics.
One needs spiritual guidance not machiavellian reservation.
Wealth is created by hard work and the trade that ensues, not by emailing fairy money around to the next gullible target.
How many asset strippers were feted back in the 80’s and 90’s. Destroyers of sound businesses that needed help just to make a quick buck.
Are we in the toilet or have we just hit the only possible denominator available, that being the lowest.
“You can screw some of the people……….etc etc”

WILLS:

The Basle II authors knew about the impossibility of running all risk into calculus and math.

These guys are full of it. The ‘off’ balance sheet scamarama all pre designed by the controlling interests and carried off to aplomb.

We are now in the next stage to their central banking tyranny CDS’s scamarama playing itself out through the hubs of the plutocratic system in place.

any takers out there on where these banking masters of the universe are taking the great paper money confidence trick next.

I reckon the world currency idea is simply a re hash of the fiat currency con job anyways, a mere reinvention of the con going forward.

On the chips thing i reckon this is merely joke shop stuff for amusement with a secondary hope for it to be used moreso in microelectronic gadgetry to collate more rudimentary data but we are all on some sort of a security type matrix at this stage so i dunno.

The one world bank thing is already here with bretton woods and i think for a time had quite beneficial advantages, cant believe im saying that, but after bretton II it all gets very very dubious.

I think the plutocrats are 10 steps ahead and are playing the system in more of a dennis the menace type beano comic type fashion.

PS200306:

And those new business ideas are bloody hard to come by. Thankfully, successful ideas don’t actually have to be entirely new — old ideas can come of age and flourish in new and unexpected ways. Example: digital audio is decades older than MP3 players or podcasting … but think of the myriad of things that had to come together before those things caught on — new synergies of software, hardware miniaturisation, standardisation in dozens of areas, new social networks, consumer critical mass, audacious Apple co-option and branding, pure dumb luck etc. etc. etc. etc. It is next to impossible to predict how and where the next synergies will materialise… or what other works-in-progress they will blow out of the water

FOOLISH PENNY:

Currencies Pegged to the Euro

Outside the Eurozone, a total of 23 countries and territories which do not belong to the EU have currencies that are directly pegged to the euro including 14 countries in mainland Africa (they use the CFP franc[clarification needed], the CFA franc and the Moroccan dirham), two African island countries (Comorian franc and Cape Verdean escudo), three French Pacific territories and another Balkan country, Bosnia and Herzegovina (Bosnia and Herzegovina convertible mark). On 28 July 2009, São Tomé and Príncipe signed an agreement with Portugal which will eventually tie its currency to the euro.

With the exception of Bosnia and Herzegovina (which pegged their currency against the German mark) and Cape Verde (formerly pegged to the Portuguese escudo) all of these non-EU countries had a currency peg to the French Franc before pegging their currencies to the euro. Pegging a country’s currency to a major currency is regarded as a safety measure, especially for currencies of areas with weak economies, as the euro is seen as a stable currency, prevents runaway inflation and encourages foreign investment due to its stability.

Within the EU several currencies have a peg to the euro, in most instances as a precondition to joining the Eurozone. The Bulgarian Lev and the Estonian kroon were formerly pegged to the German mark, other EU memberstates have a direct peg due to ERM II: the Danish krone, the Lithuanian litas and the Latvian lats.

In total, over 150 million people in Africa use a currency pegged to the euro, 25 million people outside the Eurozone in Europe and another 500,000 people on Pacific islands.

************************************************************************************

A LEGACY OF DEBT IS NOT THE BEST START FOR OUR CHILDREN: DMcW (Feb 17 2010)

ALAN42:

The only show in town ‘ is to impress the bond markets and the ECB by showing they are making cuts to government spending .

When Lenihan says ‘ We have turned a corner ‘ or ‘ Ireland is out of danger ‘ he is only talking about Irelands ability to borrow and not about the economy .

DRICK:

the developers will not pay back their debt, a bunch of incompetent civil servants wont persue them and the poor taxpayers of ireland will pick up the tab which i suspect will eventually end up in a soveriegn debt default (unless europe bails us out).

PHILIP:

I suggest a different tack with a view to move temporarily away from the banker/ government as the driver of all this mess. This reminds me of the late eighties when they started using automated buy sell systems for stocks and shares and we had that Black Monday back in Oct 88 was it?:

For me the guys today got caught up in a system that reacted very quickly to demand stimuli. Money became available far faster than it could ever be repaid – this was not by design, but because no one was keeping a watch on our ability to backfill with domestically generated wealth. The place was awash with money so the idea was to spend it before someone else did. Has our wealth creation systems been as fast, we would never have been in this mess.

All we see happening now is a damage limitation exercise to try and stop a Euro breakup and to keep economies afloat. The trouble is that the wealth generation problem has yet to be addressed. No one yet knows what to do. Governments and institutions “hope” innovation will save us. A Green Bubble, A BioTech Bubble perhaps?

Hard questions we need to ask ourselves is how are our children and many of us going to have any form of fulfilling work to do and how will it fit in?

WILLS:

The article D is about educating each consumer one by one to go a back to basics and,

spend as one earns and,

consume according to the principle of ‘delayed gratification’.

The ‘insiders’ who run the ’system’ to the destructive effect for all else do it on the basis that people will be suckered in on debt cos they want instant gratification despite going against their best interests.

They see this fact of life as scientific and impossible to alter, much like the law of gravity.

They see the human condition caught in a web of vice, dooooommmmeeeeeeeed!

I determine they are wrong and people en masse are ready to earn and spend and live their life according to the principle of delaying gratification and growing and learning and taking the risk of living using the new technologies.

And so doing away with debt bondage.

And i say, lets start some type of cultural awakening on to approach ones life living it a different way than the model we are all now presented with everywhere.

NAMA is bailing out……………. the following …….

They are developers Liam Carroll;
Bernard McNamara;

Sean Mulryan of Ballymore;

financier Derek Quinlan;

Paddy McKillen, owner of the Jervis Street Shopping Centre;

Treasury Holdings, which is owned by Johnny Ronan and Richard Barrett;

Cork developer Michael O’Flynn;

Joe O’Reilly, the developer behind the Dundrum Shopping Centre in Dublin;

Dublin builder Gerry Gannon, co-owner of the K Club golf resort in Co Kildare; and

Galway businessman Gerry Barrett, owner of Ashford Castle in Co Mayo and G Hotel in Galway.

MALCOLM:

I have never heard a satisfactory response, except a vague reference to moral hazard. This implies that if debtors in the general population had their debts annulled, then they will never expect to be required to repay any part of their future borrowings, and the whole basis of commerce would collapse. One possible solution for cash-strapped mortgagees is to negotiate an equity split that leaves them with the proportion their deposit represented and rent the rest until they sell up and leave.

When companies cannot repay their debts, but can provide evidence that they have some prospect of recovery, than they can usually negotiate a roll-up, a deferral or a percentage repayment. NAMA assets seem intended to fall into this last category, recovering their fair value at some point in the future.

If a country controls its own currency it can let inflation devalue everyone’s debts.
As Ireland is stuck with the Euro, we don’t have that option.

CBWEB:

“Finally, an offbeat idea which is not an alternative to the others, but can run alongside. Countries in the Middle Ages often operated with two or more currencies: an international one such as the ducat or florin, and local currencies with more restricted use. Could not such a local currency, whether or not called the drachma, emerge in this way with or without the sanction of the Greek government? It would surely be better than being crucified by the international financiers.

Punt = 80% of one euro, to start off with.

Then we get a local currency that mirrors a value in the Euro that enables us to adjust to suit our needs! This enables us to stay in the Euro and manage our finances through the punt that is still linked to the euro!

Painful, but would help us get a grip and it makes a whole lot of sense!

MT25:

– Can we introduce a second currency to operate alongside the Euro?

– Localised currency (Island of ireland or just ROI)

– Not necessarily legal tender – voluntary code of acceptance

– For such currency to thrive it should have intrinsic value or v. strong backing

– Obvious solution is energy unit (e.g. kWh)

– Could be restricted to renewable energy.

– Affords people of ireland via government and semi-state energy providers to effectively print new money as energy credits – a form of quantitative easing.

– Could contribute directly to social welfare and civil service payments.

– Could part compensate for pay cuts in private sector wages.

– Provide long term local economic stability by buffering fluctuations in Euro (or local ability to use the Euro) with ability to earn real value redeemable local currency.

– Increase the country’s “flirt” factor by encouraging production of renewable energy and leading the world in establishing a global universal currency concept that is acceptable to all localities.

WILLS:

numbers written onto ledgers and re accrued into fat developers accounts.

So, technically speaking the numbers thrown about are meaningless cos there is no real wealth or paper monies there, atall , it is not there, nowhere.

So, it is not owed, so NAMA is not needed, it is a lie, a SCAM, a set up to usher in a new scam hidden away in the debt creation brambles.

Also, going with this  theory it means the debt over hang on our children is in fact under scrutiny smoke and mirrors and a dennis the menace invisible ink scam to scare people into thinking its real and under scrutiny it is not there, the debt is merely numbers wriiten by someone with a badge into a big fat ledger and nothing more nothing less.

BAMBOO;

Ok thanks for this. I understand how public money works.

My point is really that David’s article gives me the impression that an innocent baby is saddled with a debt of €46,641 before it can even open its eyes. I find that a little stark to put it that way.

If this is the case then the taxes should be itemized what each person is paying tax for. Tax receipts to pay for public expenditure have been there from the start of the tax system I guess and don’t need any explanation. Of course we don’t need to have itemized lists of where tax moneys go to for the current tax systems.

But now that we are entering era and a new introduction of taxes (to pay off these debts) that nobody have ever come across before, each person should then be informed of what one is paying for each time we receive a salary slip. This is an introduction of taxes that need to be processed as a separate item and as a reminder for future generations of what the h*k this is all about.
I know that in Holland for instance the GOV put a system in place that anyone alive and/or receiving an income has to have health insurance. This health insurance is compulsory for every citizen so it is TAX. This is itemized in salary slips or social welfare income payments. This is what I was trying to say in point 25 above.

I think it is extremely important that each citizen is made aware of these additional burdens in TAX format. The GOV can’t get away with this and simply add taxes in the hope that in the years time to come the public will forget it.

To illustrate this even more:
Unlike the National Day of Commemoration around Sunday 11th of July that hardly gets any national attention, the present GOV and generation owes this to future generations. A Future Generation that must get the opportunity to learn that no authority can ever do this again. Mainland Europe has the Remembrance Day, which is an extremely important day to remember the holocaust and to learn that that period of history must never ever be forgotten and must never be repeated again. Maybe this is a bit extreme example but we certainly can apply this idea to what has happened in the recent church scandals. How long have they tried to hide these scandals from the public and what is the GOV’s role in this?

WILLS:

Tax is public monies.

Monies are paper.

Paper has no value.

Taxing is not about the money it is about controlling access and power over wealth creation.

THe system holds together on the scope of its power it induces from the masses.

The medium of exchange is a tool weaponized into paper money in order to fix the masses onto debt and debt bondage and so under the yoke of control of the controlling interests.

CBWEB:

Europe does not want us to default and show bad example to the rest of the PIIGS, so they praise us and give us euro bonds for NAMA and Irish banks.

‘Screw the taxpayer as much as you can’ is required to make this formula to protect the euro stick! Its not good for the euro to have banks that fail!

Incompetent FF swallow the bait and tell us at every turn how they are supported internationally!!!!

They don’t realise how they are being screwed by the ECB euro mandarins.

The less the taxpayer knows the better according to FF.

DECO:

This is the type of environment that creates even more cronyism and corruption. Having the state getting more involved in banking is a farce. In fact quasi nationalisation of large banks is a disaster, because it exposes the taxpayer on the downside, and cushions the idiots who mismanaged the banks with their careers. There seems to be this idea that society would fall apart of a bank went to the wall. From what I seeing preventing banks going to the wall is completely undermining whatever has not been destroyed of the social fabric of the country. That means whatever has not been destroyed by the last two decades of mixing consumerism, selfishness, decadence, waste, stupidity, deceit, laziness, and institutional greed. As a society we are due a serious crisis. It is a result of all the things that we are doing wrong. And what amazes me is the fact that while some idiots have reined themselves in and restrained themselves, others have gone into overdrive seeing this as an opportunity to get themselves into the bigtime.

In our moment of crisis we must not transfer control of our society from one collection of opportunists to another collection of opportunists. Yet this is exactly where people are heading between the soap operas, talent shows, and the 24 by 7 by 365 sports coverage on TV.

WILLS:

I suggest the switch in paper used by BoI to make its agreed payment back to the taxpayer for bailing the bank out of self imposed bankruptcy, the switch from the pay back been monies to share coupons is another SCAM.

It opens up another door into another SCAM set up to consolidate power and as the elites re arrange the pieces on the board.

Share coupons are been used in the place of cash monies, diluting down whatever real value of the asset – the bank is left.

The fact the bank will not re pay in monies in of itself indicates ‘debts’ on the banks books are alot worse than is been made public.

Also, this new type of payment been used means we are entering into further revealations concerning more debts which the taxpayer will be called on to pay off.

Debts pawned off onto taxpayer and real cash are two different stories.

DECO:

Concerning housing, there was a euphoria that fed by the entire establishment – banks, political, media, professional, etc… You knew what was happening and got out.

I really don’t like the ’singularity’ of mindset that exists in modern contemporary Ireland. I mean in the old days you had your various forms of dissenters to everything. Nowadays, the establishment and the media have a grip on the intellectual state of the nation that is frigthening. This is not a uniquely Irish problem – it seems to affect every single “Anglo-Saxon” society to varying degrees. Look at the New Labour scam in the UK, or the way that all the old boring faces on the Democratic Party

The biggest problem in Greece is that paying taxes is largely “optional”. When the Greeks fix the tax system and implement a model of public spending accountability from Frankfurt, Greece will be fixed.

up along with Goldman Sacks executives under Obama.

JOHN ALLEN:

wills – you said –

‘The medium of exchange is a tool weaponized into paper money in order to fix the masses onto debt and debt bondage and so under the yoke of control of the controlling interests’.

Ok so currency is a medium of exchange .I agree with that .However, I believe we have a choice of how and what we do with our money and so in that process I do not feel compelled to be under bondage and control of a vested interest.After all if there was no currency there would be no exchange or trade and I would be worse off .So my point is that the process of of the use of currency is benevolent as in the bible .Anyone lucky enough to have currency therefore has a choice.Those that have no currency will do anything to get it .
Unless the choice of the Franchisors ( eg Sovereign Banks ) of the currency is benign then then the rules of currency is just plain logic and not under control of vested interest. Therefore those good at applying monetary algebra receive the best return for their hard work.
Thats human nature is’nt it? Nothing will change that.

WILLS:

THese elites are in a struggle for power.

The struggle is driven through individual personal struggles of an inner nature.

And as is at the top as is at the bottom where there is no power base this inner struggle may end in destruction and here to day we are getting this at gov and banking and corporate level.

The balance toward the people winning the struggle is out numbered by the numbers of people loosing the inner struggle and so we get the outcome of destruction, NOT evil though, its volatile deranged prsonalities posing as normal but in fact sociopathic and deranged.

 

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